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A 4 panel comic. In the first panel, a character stands on a cliff, addressing an audience, and says “trans kids should not get puberty blockers”. In the second panel, the audience, armed and labeled “cis people”, looks content. In the third panel, the character on the cliff says “they should get hrt so they can go through the right puberty at the same time as their cis peers”. In the fourth panel, the audience, still labeled “cis people”, looks angry at the character.

if you’re cis and seeing this: keep your concern trolling to yourself.

  • sartalon@lemmy.world
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    23 minutes ago

    I struggle with this.

    I want to be supportive of anyone struggling to be who they are, but at the same time, I remember just how difficult and how long it took for me to really find who I am and what I see as my place. (I still struggle with that. My midlife crisis is that I no longer feel like I know who I really am anymore.)

    So I hesitate when it comes to supporting someone to make a permanent, irrevocable change during a period of life that is considered the most in flux.

    Both my daughters have traveled the spectrum, calling themselves straight, to bi, to gay, to pan, to trans, and back. It started at 8 and while not as dynamic now, they have settled a little bit at 14 and 12. The 12 year old likes girls and seems trans curious, while the 14 year old goes between liking boys, sometimes girls, or feeling asexual.

    I wasn’t sure how to support them but at the same time, I was afraid they would make decisions that would affect a good part of their lives, based off something that was potentially transient.

    I ended up telling them that I support them. That I am not telling them they are not who they say they are, but they should avoid jumping into assigning themselves a label. I tell them this age is about self exploration and finding that identity. But they have the luxury of time to explore and experience, and that the moment they box themselves into a label, then that is what they will become to the world.

    My fear is them getting trapped into a supposed identity before they really know who they are.

    I do not have personal experience with children who express gender dysmorphia at a young age to such an extent they want an externally driven change, so I don’t feel like I can argue in good faith.

    And I also understand that the quality of life of someone who truly is trapped in the wrong gender would be much greater, were they able to transition much earlier.

    So how do you know? How can you help and support someone, at that age, when everything about individual identity is still so new and unknown to them?

    • Courtney (she/her/they) @lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      14 minutes ago

      I’m sorry you went through such uncertainty, that’s certainly not rare with transitioning.

      Personally, I have known for over 20 years, since I was a child, and my life would have had far less self-inflicted suffering if I had been allowed to transition then. Even blockers until 15-16 and then hrt would have gone a long way.

  • TotallynotJessica@lemmy.blahaj.zoneM
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    2 hours ago

    I think puberty blockers should be an option for those with genuine uncertainty, but trans kids should definitely be allowed to start hrt early.

      • Courtney (she/her/they) @lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        19 minutes ago

        It’s literally “I don’t want my kid to be trans but I don’t want to alienate them by saying that so I’m just going to put the decision off so it’s no longer my problem to worry about” IMO

        Just slightly better than outright bigotry and phobia by screaming at the child they’re “wrong”

  • carin_heron@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    3 hours ago

    It is honestly such a great example of how disingenuous liberal support of trans people is when our “rights matter,” but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t suffer an intensely traumatic childhood for no other reason than the comfort of bigots. I can’t even begin to explain how much easier my life would have been, and so many of them do just think that’s a natural and inevitable thing that trans people have to experience and not like, an arbitrary and pointlessly cruel form of systemic violence.

  • jtrek@startrek.website
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    1 hour ago

    I just… I don’t have a horse in this race. I’m a cis dude. This should just be between some other family and their doctors/therapists to decide what’s best.

  • I’ve never understood that thinking. Well, I guess the whole point of it is the lack of thinking tbh.

    Why would you not want every tool available for your kid? If blockers are what they need, they should get them. If they need different hormones than what their body is producing, they should get them. If they need different levels of what they’re producing, they should get them.

    Shit, birth control pills are used for some very young people, and nobody freaks out at the fact of it. The freaking out is usually at the implication of someone very young having sex, not that the medication is useful in general.

    We know that the outcomes are predictable for HRT, and that those outcomes are better when the person has access as early as medically possible (there are edge cases where delaying start allows for other medical care to occur first, but those are very rare). So what’s the big damn deal? There’s plenty of data on outcomes now. There’s plenty of data on regret now. Those rates are lower than cosmetic procedures for full adults getting them for non medical reasons (like nose jobs and facelifts, not reconstructions post injury).

    It’s safe. It’s effective. It gives the highest probability of your kid, of anyone’s kid growing up as healthy as can be predicted. We know this because it is so much the majority outcome, and the drawbacks so minimal, that nobody that can be bothered to read the data could think otherwise. And it’s out there; might have to pirate some of it, but still.

    It’s infuriating. The whole puberty blockers but not transition idea is so dumb. It’s so depressingly, boringly dumb.

  • gegil@sopuli.xyz
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    24 minutes ago

    Isnt puberty reversible with hrt for adults? The whole point of hrt is to reverse one hormone to another, even after puberty already happened?

    Edit: Okay, i now understand. The problem with puberty is not that it is irreversible, but that it is difficult and expensive to deal with reversing those changes. It is important for trans kids to get required treatment, to not deal with those problems as adults, as trans adults must do.

    Edit 2: I did a mistake in wording about my question in changes reversible with hrt, while i should have asked about more difficult and expensive surgeries. Also i want to mention, is that i did end up enough androgynous after puberty, to get biased towards thinking that it is not a big issue, which is not the case, as many trans people can get more severe effects of puberty, which are more difficult to deal with, both emotionally and finacially.

    • riwo@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      1 hour ago

      many effects are quite hard to reverse

      • breasts: don’t magically disappear on t. needs surgery
      • deep voice: doesn’t magically get much higer through e. needs voice training
      • bones: barely change afaik except for pelvic tilt on e if you start it early enough. including growing/shrinking and facial bone structure. needs surgery
      • body hair: gets thinner and sometimes less on e but chest and facial hair stay. needs lazer hair removal or electrolizis
      • balding: only minimally reverses on e. needs hair transplants

      what second puberty can achieve:

      • t:
        • deepening voice
        • new and thicker body hair including facial hair
        • fat and muscles redistribution in masculine conotated way
        • balding
        • increasing clitoris size
        • increase skin more oily
      • e:
        • breast growth
        • redistributing fat and muscles in feminie conotated way
        • thinning body and facial hair
        • stopping some balding and slightly reversing it
        • slight shrinking
        • pelvic tilting
        • make skin softer and less oily

      i might have missed some things and of course everyones mileage may varie.

      some aspects of first puberty can’t be reversed using hrt and they often are both used to invalidate trans people and can cause a lot of dysphoria. it’s why many trans people who get to medically transition are still quite unhappy.

      • gegil@sopuli.xyz
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        1 hour ago

        As you said, those changes are hard to reverse, but they are reversible. And while bone structure does not change, and even after finfing out about it, i still dont understand in what way bone structure matters for trans people?

        • riwo@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          45 minutes ago

          you are shifting the goal post now.

          much of this reversing does not come from hrt as u initially claimed but from hard work and expensive as well as sometimes life threatening surgeries. it should absolutely be avoided if possible.

          bones do not have to be a big deal if one is as lucky to get androgynous bones out of first puberty, or has a very excepting environment which does not care about these things and one does themselves not care much about them either. but in many cases trans people are as unlucky to end up with bones making them noticably larger/broader or shorter than the norm for their gender or with pronounced facial bones which despite fat redistribution and makeup cause them to be read as a gender that they are not. this can be extremely dysphoria inducing and make them more likely targets for harassment.

          the way to change this (if there even is one) is through painful, dangerous, and very expensive surgeries. full facial feminization surgery for example will cost as much as 50k and is often not covered by insurance as well as often requiring people to travel to travel to foreign countries. this is not an option for many people. even if health insurance covered this, it would still be a giant pain and come with risks. there is no reason to not let people chose for themselves and avoid this situation in more cases.

          • gegil@sopuli.xyz
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            29 minutes ago

            Thanks for explanation. I did a real mistake in incorrectly wording my question about changes reversible with hrt, instead of asking what changes must be done with difficult and expensive surgeries. Also, i did end up enough androgynous after puberty to get biased towards not thinking that it might have much more severe effects for other transgender people.

        • DaPorkchop_ [any]@lemmy.ml
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          51 minutes ago

          uh… my forehead and nose and jaw are shaped all wrong, and look obviously masculine unless i’m wearing an uncomfortable amount of makeup? sure that’s “reversible” if i had 50 grand lying around to spend on surgeries (and months of time to recover from said surgeries), but i don’t and neither do most other people.

        • trashgirlfriend@lemmy.world
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          58 minutes ago

          me explain simple

          family guy peter griffin chin bad when want to look like girl

          child bearing hips bad when want to look like boy

    • just2look@piefed.social
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      2 hours ago

      There are physical changes the body undergoes during puberty. They cannot be undone. HRT will cause some changes, but they won’t undo what happened.

      There is also the mental piece. Forcing someone to watch their body change to be farther and farther from what they know it should be. HRT later in life doesn’t undo the mental trauma.

      • gegil@sopuli.xyz
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        2 hours ago

        I understand that it is mentally traumatic for kids to grow of undesired sex, but i dont understand what is the big deal with puberty if it is reversible. What physical changes do you mean which are not reversible with hrt for adults?

        • DaPorkchop_ [any]@lemmy.ml
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          47 minutes ago

          testosterone puberty permanently fucked up the shape of my face, shoulders, hips and waist, lowered my voice, grew a bunch of gross hair everywhere (which is slow, painful and expensive to remove), and made me lose a whole bunch of hair from my head, to name some of the most obvious things. none of those effects are reversible from taking estrogen.

          and that’s not to mention the mental damage resulting from basically being an emotionally dead zombie for a decade until i started HRT.

          • gegil@sopuli.xyz
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            48 minutes ago

            Okay, i now understand. The problem with puberty is not that it is irreversible, but that it is difficult and expensive to deal with reversing those changes. It is important for trans kids to get required treatment, to not deal with those problems as adults, trans adults must do.

            • fracture@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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              34 minutes ago

              many aspects are irreversible, basically anything that happens to your skeleton cannot be undone. there is no surgery to remove my pelvic tilt or make my hands bigger, i just get to live with them for the rest of my life (this is as a result of estrogenic puberty)

        • just2look@piefed.social
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          1 hour ago

          Did you miss the part where I said the changes cannot be undone? As in they are irreversible? You cannot go back in time regardless of what hormones you are on.

          “…transformation of the brain, bones, muscle, blood, skin, hair, breasts, and sex organs…Puberty leads to sexual dimorphism through the development of the secondary sex characteristics, which further distinguish the sexes.”

          • gegil@sopuli.xyz
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            57 minutes ago

            I did not miss that part, but i incorrectly worded my question. What puberty changes are irreversible, with neither hrt, medication or excercises? From my understanding, almost every part of puberty can be reversed, so that i ask you to explain which changes are actually irreversible.

            • just2look@piefed.social
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              50 minutes ago

              Nearly all of the changes are irreversible. HRT will change your body, but will not give you the body you would have had of you went through puberty with the proper hormones. Your skeletal structure, hair growth, breast development, vocal changes, genital development, and more cannot be undone.

        • Loren@beehaw.org
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          1 hour ago

          Something being reversible quite obviously has nothing to do with it being traumatic for years regardless. How is that hard to understand?