Here are my top 3:
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Whataboutism with Christainity - I’ve been a vocal critic of islam in atheist spaces for well over a decade. There has not been a single instance of me criticizing islam where I did not get a hoard of atheists bringing up Christianity for no reason. There’s no relevance and no point to it, but they get really mad when I try to focus on islam. It’s like why can’t they just accept that islam or other religions can be criticized on their own merits independently?
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Self centered American atheists - Whenever I ever bring up my and my family’s experiences in the middle east and how horrible islam is over there, there will always be a handful of ignorant American atheists who can’t comprehend that the world is more than their country. No ISIS and your dumb MAGA uncle are not the same.
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“All religions are bad” - I hate this statement because it’s like “all lives matter”. Yeah, no shit all religions are bad. That’s literally the baseline of any atheist community. All the discussions lie in the nuances beyond that. Smearing this statement all over atheist spaces is completely meaningless.
What about you guys? Are there any things in the atheist community that you noticed that make your eyes twitch? I would love to hear them.
Yeah, no shit all religions are bad.
Are all religions bad? I’m not religious myself. I don’t believe in any gods. But I think religion can sometimes inspire people to do good things (e.g. charity), although of course it can also inspire people to do bad things (war, honour killings, etc).
I think the current Pope has a better moral compass than a lot of non-religious people. For example, see these comments from the Pope earlier this year:
Woe to those who manipulate religion and the very name of God for their own military, economic and political gain… They turn a blind eye to the fact that billions of dollars are spent on killing and devastation, yet the resources needed for healing, education and restoration are nowhere to be found… The world is being ravaged by a handful of tyrants
All religions are bad. A worldview eg a religion is not “good” just because it sometimes produces results which are beneficial.
They are all based on magical thinking - essentially the belief that you can tap into some secret pure source of knowledge just by wishing it to be true and thinking.
People’s inability to come to rational conclusions by themselves is IMO the biggest threat to world peace today.
The first step towards rational thinking is being comfortable saying, “I don’t know what that is”, and “I don’t know how to achieve that outcome”. Then you can slowly and carefully explore the options, always ready to step back into the harsh light of your own ignorance.
Compare that with religious thinking, where the adherent jumps wildly to conclusions, and doggedly sticks to them simply because they have been conditioned by religion to think faith without evidence is in itself worthy of reward.
I prefer non-religion which is why I’m non-religious, but I’ve known decent people in real life who were religious. I try to respect their right to believe what they like, because I’d like them to also respect my right to believe what I like.
Yeah I agree with you that sometimes it’s best to admit that you don’t know something. There are many questions we don’t know the answers to, such as the question of whether life exists in other galaxies, just as one example.
sometimes it’s best to admit that you don’t know something
Well if you follow scientific principles, you *always* (not just sometimes) accept that you start from a position of ignorance.
Nothing is known for sure - at any time, new evidence could emerge that would, for instance, completely change our understanding of electricity, or of the origins of the universe.
More to the point, there is no need to take a firm position on anything. Why do you need someone to respect your right to believe what you want? Are you unable to justify your position?
There is no “right to believe what you want”. That would be like having a right to have diarrhoea. Nothing is stopping you believing what you want, you don’t need anyone’s permission.
You can believe that the world is flat and exists on the surface of an enormous elephant’s ear if you want. Go ahead. No one will stop you. They might call you stupid or deranged, but they aren’t going to stop you. Well, except by convincing you of your error.
If you do understand the principles of science, then you should understand that there are things we can agree on. Everyone - even the stupidest most evangelical idiot, even the most psychotic mental patient - everyone believes in evidence.
Have you ever talked to a religious person about why they think what they do? They will cite evidence, and they will explain the conclusions they derive from that evidence.
What is different between a religious idiot and a rational actor is what evidence they trust, and the size of the leaps they will make when making conclusions from that.
Needless to say, a religious person will consider things such as a vague feeling to be evidence, or some arbitrary coincidence, and they will make huge leaps of faith based on very little evidence indeed. While a rational thinker will try to consider a whole range of evidence before drawing careful conclusions, and even then they should remain open to all possibilities.
From this acceptance of our absolute ignorance, and a willingness to question accepted wisdom, science has slowly and increasingly carefully built up a worldview which reliably and reproducibly produces useful results. In just a few centuries. This is considerably more than religion has done in millennia of make-believe and fart-worship.
I’ve not been convinced of religious thinking which is why I’m non-religious, but I think it’s fair for me to respect people believing in religion, so that they will also respect me not believing in religion. In some cultures in history, people have been persecuted for being atheists. I’m more in favour of people being able to believe what they want without facing discrimination due to their beliefs.
What are you talking about, challenging beliefs and assumptions is not persecution or discrimination.
You should welcome such challenges and have the courage to deal with them head on, as learning experiences, rather than some kind of lame-ass desperation to appease those with opposing views, in the hope they won’t ask you awkward questions that challenge your cozy conceits.
I wonder if you even are irreligious, you sound more like a bible basher with this kind of intellectual cowardice and dishonesty.
I’m saying there have been cultures in history where atheists faced discrimination. I think atheists in western countries used to face discrimination and ostracisation. And in some Muslim countries even today, if a Muslim leaves their religion, they can face harsh penalties.
some kind of lame-ass desperation to appease those with opposing views, in the hope they won’t ask you awkward questions that challenge your cozy conceits
I’m not desperate to appease people with opposing views. I just know that I have met some religious people in my life who I got on well with. I didn’t agree with their views, but I could still get on with them. If I come across someone and I think they’re a decent person who I can get on well with, then I won’t mind what their religious views are, as long as they are respectful of my lack of religious belief.
Don’t you think it’s important that people are able to think critically and make sensible conclusions?
I get on best with people who think outside the box and don’t accept the norm. People who reject tradition, the traditional roles and hierarchies of society. So I don’t really meet people on a friendly basis who are religious. Religion is tradition, literally the same thing. I’ve worked with people who I’ve later found out believe some religion or other, and from then on I can’t look at them the same way, as I can’t shake the feeling that they must be at least a bit stupid.
However what I do find is that the kinds of people that I do mix with can often be a bit conspiratorially minded. I meet too many anti-vaxxers. 911 deniers even.
It is IMO the same inability to think critically at play. It’s one thing to speculate, and say “this might be true, or alternatively this could be true, or even this”. There’s nothing wrong with that, I think it’s healthy in fact to challenge assumptions. The problem is that people pick one of many possible options - often one of the least likely ones - and then commit to that one position. These people have a faith much like religious faith in the daft ideas they choose to pin their egos to.
This kind of faulty thinking is IMO what leads to MAGA. It leads people to support authoritarian regimes such as Russia’s or Iran’s.
So I do push back on it when I encounter it, which as I say is far too often. Obviously you have to do so intelligently, and to pick your battles. No one has ever genuinely changed someone’s mind through nagging or insults.
I genuinely believe it is important for people like you and me to spread the skill of critical thinking. To encourage people not to pin their loyalties so easily to some daft idea and then doggedly stick to that regardless of the other possibilities.
Hiding behind “atheism” as a label, where you’re really actually being racist against Muslims for daring to have a different culture than your own. I think OP might be associated with that too, considering the reactions he’s getting
What are you even talking about?
Islamophobia under the guise of atheism. I’m immediately suspicious of “atheists” who want to talk about Islam a little too much.
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When people bring up Christianity they are sharing their experience as a way to show they also understand your frustration because we have similar problems with Christians in the U.S.
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Fanatic religious people are actually kind of the same everywhere. They all think it’s their way only. And if not, they will hope bad things happen to you, to teach you a lesson. And many actively engage in activities to harm others who don’t conform.
This is the same all over the world.
It’s true we don’t have a lot of suicide bombers. But we do have extremist doing a lot of things that harm many people. They do so in ways that get less press attention.
- Most religions are bad. Because they have the same end game. Control and subjugate. Which makes them bad.
Spirituality and community can be achieved without religious doctrine. Religion uses people’s desire for these things to control them.
I honestly do not understand your complaints.
If you don’t want to hear responses about American/Western atheist experiences, why post on this community ?
What do you want people to say to you ?
What kind of responses are you wanting ?
Have you asked yourself what you want people to say back. ?
I don’t know what else , mostly Western atheists, are going to say.
Except
“Yeah Christian fundamentalist are really awful here in the U.S, UK, and Australia (English speaking countries). And make the country unsafe and fascist”
We do have all sorts of religions here in the U.S, but it’s mostly the Christian evangelical /nationalist that are causing big problems.
And many atheists believe :
“Religion promotes adherence to made-up rules that people in power use to control and impoverish the general public”.
I think that’s a common opinion. It’s sort of part of being an atheist.
If you have a favorable opinion of religion, then you probably are religious and thus not an atheist.
You misunderstood all 3 of my pet peeves.
- What you’re describing here is not whataboutism. I have no issue with people who bring up Christianity as way of detailing their anecdotes. Personal experiences in of itself serves a point. No, what I’m talking about are the instances where there is no point, or rather the point is derail the conversation.
Here’s just a quick hypothetical example. Let’s say you make a post criticizing ongoing islamic imperialism campaigns, and you get a bunch of comments bringing up the crusades being bad. These comments have no relevance and serve no point besides trying to derail the original topic and serve as a weak “gotcha” where the implication is that you’re a bad person if you don’t admit that the crusades are equally bad, regardless of validity. I’ve seen these types of comments a lot, and they annoy me.
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What you’re saying is only true to a degree. While it’s true that all religious fundamentalist share the same core traits, there is a HUGE difference in environment. Extremism is a relative concept that varies wildly depending on the context. Religious extremists in American are MAGA idiots who want to ban abortion, bible thump, and be homophobic. In my home country of Iraq, religious extremists are literally ISIS. It’s perfectly fine to recognize both are extremists in their societies and they both cause harm. There is no issue with Americans talking about fundamentalists in their country. My problem lies when a specific subset of Americans insist that “y’all qaeda” and the actual al qaeda are basically the same or something along those lines. They’re absolutely not the same, and implying as such is just ignorant. MAGA would be considered soft moderates in a middle eastern religious extremism scale.
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I’m not disputing the statement all religions are bad, I’m saying that’s the baseline. Endlessly preaching it to the choir is entirely meaningless, and it actually takes away from real discussions. Again, it’s like the “all lives matter” nonsense. We know all lives matter, that’s the baseline. Repeating that takes away from the real discussions that lie in the nuance, like how black people are being treated worse than others despite their lives mattering just as much as everyone else’s. It’s a similar story here. We can’t meaningfully criticize harmful aspects of specific religions if all the attempts get drowned and diluted by “all religion bad” comments.
I guess I still do not quite understand what you want.
I can see why you would be concerned about people maybe not understanding that the extremism you experienced is much worse than that experienced in western English countries.
I honestly don’t think people think it’s the same here (u.s) as it is there (middle eastern countries).
We all watch the news and know of some of the things going on.
But I stand by that religious zealots are the same everywhere. They just get away with worse behavior in different places. They all harbor violent and hostile behavior. Magas aren’t our bad ones. The evangelical nationalist are.
If you are looking to have a in-depth theological based discussion about Islamic religion and how it’s being used negatively or positively in the world, I’m not sure this is the best community.
Most people here, myself included, are more familiar with Christian doctrine. As this is an English community.
I probably know a bit more than the average American about Islam, but mostly because I took a world religion class in college and wrote my final on Islamic women’s perspectives on westernization.
And I basically argued for why western women (feminist) can’t and shouldn’t interfere or lead change in womens liberation in Muslim countries because we misunderstand a lot about their situation. But we can and should support them. But we don’t have a right to tell them what needs changed or judge them.
I gave an example of covering their hair. Some women do see it as oppression. Some see it as just normal clothing that women wear. Like , for instance, how western women wearing bras.
Forcing a woman to remove her hair covering feels immodest to her. And makes her uncomfortable. Just like if you forced a western woman to remove her bra and told her it was a symbol of oppression. Maybe it is. But it’s not up to someone else to decide these things. And forcing someone out of something is just as bad as forcing them into something.
But as you can see, that’s a very small slice of experience with Islam. And it was a feminist take.
15 years ago. One class.
If that’s the sort of discussions you are interested in though, you may not find it here.
I know there are communities of people who have left certain religions and want to talk and connect with similar people. They are out there. I just don’t know where.
Forums. ?
Probably a reddit sub but if you are here you probably aren’t using reddit.
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